Episode 5: Indonesia – The Key to Australia’s Economic Prosperity

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As one of our closest neighbours, Indonesia has often been seen as a holiday destination rather than a strong economic partner. We speak with former DFAT Officer Jeff Bost about DFAT’s long-term investment in Indonesia and how Australia must adapt its economy to new trade opportunities with its neighbours.

 

 

Jeff Bost is a career international development consultant. His expertise covers team leadership; program design, management, and performance assessment; monitoring and evaluation, and training. He has a passion for mentoring counterpart staff and young professionals. Jeff is a former AusAID/DFAT officer with postings to the Australian Embassies in Jakarta and Beijing, and with the intergovernmental organisation the Commonwealth Secretariat with postings to London and the Solomon Islands. He has carried out long and short-term assignments across a wide range of sectors in over 40 countries in Asia, Africa, Caribbean, Pacific, Europe and North America.

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Transcript

 

Jeff B

Aid is about benefits to the recipient. Development it's more mutual, I think it's benefits to Australia being driven by trade, trade opportunities as strategic. It's us being able to work with countries in our region.

 

Peter M

When you think about Indonesia in the 80s to now, it's such a different country, and just to see the changes that occurred before and after the Suharto years. It's an interesting country, and it's gone from strength to strength, despite the challenges it has with the way it does business.

 

Jeff B

I think one of the things Australia will be going now into increasingly is to recapturing our own manufacturing capacity. And if we do that, given our labour costs, I think we'll be sort of trying to do at the high end of manufacturing, sophisticated manufacturing. That increases an opportunity to export that sort of expertise as well to other countries.

 

Peter M

Welcome to the third series of conversations in development, a podcast about challenges, life stories and experiences in the development sector. I'm Peter Mason, your host and CEO of Cufa, an international development agency working across the Asia Pacific region. Today we welcome Jeff Bost, an international development consultant, and former DFAT officer who has had postings to Australian embassies in Jakarta and Beijing. Thank you Jeff for coming in today, tell us a little bit about the work you've done around Indonesia.

 

Jeff B

Well, perhaps I'll just start with what led me to Indonesia, if that's okay. I grew up in cabramatta, and so in the 50s, in the 60s, it was a very surprisingly multicultural society even then, but of course, multiculturalism is very monochrome. All my classmates generally come from either Britain as part of the post World War Two migration in the so called Ten Pound Poms, but also from Northern Europe, from the Baltic states from Scandinavia and Northern Europe. And as that immigration policy kicked on after the war and into the 50s, it became a little less blond and blue eyed and went further south towards the Mediterranean, sort of darker hair, darker skin, and that was government policy at the time. So my classmates, you know, had names like Duško, Bronco, Sergio, Johan, the girls were Elena Gabriella, and Josefina and I went to Canberra to do the university. And at the time, that was something which I thought was going to be really exciting, let's get out of Sydney and go to somewhere exotic. And for me Canberra was it was an exotic sort of place to go. And there I saw for the first time, so many different nationalities and predominantly from Asia and the South Pacific. Because in those days, you're going to sit meet someone from Asia or the South they are likely going to be at university. I was in a dormitory, and a lot of those overseas students were in my dormitory with me as well as in my class. And it occurred me that, you know, I've sort of got to know a little bit about different cultures in European, and the circumstances in which brought people to Australia, and in the sort of the aftermath of a major war.

 

Peter M

Did this cultural difference, encourage you to work and study in Asia in the Pacific?

 

Jeff B

I was really intrigued, and I knew at that stage had a very strong department of Asian Studies, and I've gone down to do I went to an agricultural High School in Sydney, and I went to Canberra to do forestry. But then I saw all these other opportunities, so what I did, I also concurrently decided to do Asian studies as well, to learn about Asia, to learn about foreign languages. And so I chose Southeast Asian civilizations majoring in Indonesian, Indonesia, being the nearest neighbour and a country I knew nothing about. I was able to go to Indonesia, the first time as a student when I was still studying, and then backpack from Bali across Java, Sumatra, up into Singapore, Malaysia and Thailand. I spent two months in Indonesia, and I got to know the place, loved the place, and I did intensive language, which is supplementary to what I was doing back in Canberra. When I got back to Australia, I was just determined to think well, this is a sort of career I'd really love to have. I learned about AusAID, which in those days was called AIDAB, because most of the students in Canberra in those days had come through AIDAB scholarships. So I learned about it, and when I finished I applied for the public service and was lucky enough to get into AIDAB. I joined and 12 months later, I was sent on my first posting. And so that started my career in international development and Indonesia is rolling that was that at the beginning of my career, the middle of career, and then book ending at the end of my career, so Three Incarnations. So the first one was in the early 80s. In Indonesia, at very large aid programme then. That was primarily on education, there's was a lot of scholarships back to Australia. There was a very large scale infrastructure projects. those were the days when I was very much about constructing stuff.

 

Peter M

Where did these main infrastructure projects take place?

 

Jeff B

There was a very large roads project in Kalimantan. There was a steel bridges project across Java, there was a concrete bridges. Many of those bridges and roads are still in use now in Indonesia nearly 40 years later, there was agricultural type projects. So my role as a junior officer in those days was to liaise with the project personnel, and there were large scale projects. There were no women in those days in the aid programme, they're all males. They're either single, or they had families with them, and there were projects which even are so big, they had so many kids, that they actually brought Australian school teachers on site, and for example, in Kalimantan. It was the Suharto regime guided democracy, the new order, it was a very poor country. It was my first exposure to the aid programme and how we were perceived, and how we related, how we Australians are related to our Indonesian counterparts, and how they related to us. I love that, but three years later, I'd finished and moved on for another posting and did other things in other places. And in the mid 90s, I then came back to Indonesia, and this time it was through a secondment from AusAID, AIDAB had become AusAID at that time, to an organisation called IDP education Australia. Now, they were the overseas or some of the umbrella arm of the Australian universities. In that 10 years, I'd been out of Indonesia, the middle class that expanded, the Indonesian economy was going along. And because it was now an expanding middle class, there was also then a market for private education, and that was the role of RDP education Australia. They lost their Indonesia manager, and they put a request into AusAID if someone like me could go up and be their Indonesia manager. So I did that basically, from camera going back and forward. And then I finished that after a couple of years and then did different things in different places. In roundabout 2005 2006, I was in Papua New Guinea, was on a project then, I spent two years living in a hotel in Port Moresby. And after having spent nearly 10 years in the Pacific, I wanted to get back to Indonesia.

 

Peter M

What changed during those years away from Indonesia? How did you overcome the language barrier?

 

Jeff B

And so I got my language books out again and at night. And when you're in PNG, there's two things you could do at night, one is to do something constructive, the other was to drink, and perhaps in my case, I did both. But I got back the textbooks, I got back into mainland Asia and I also did postgraduate study from a distance of monitoring and evaluation. And so I came out as a qualifications in evaluation and and also got my language back up. And I was able to land in a project Indonesia short term as an evaluator, and at that time, the Australian aid programme was prioritising evaluation on all activities. So for the next five years, I was doing lots and lots of projects, mainly through Indonesia. Then in about 2013 a vacancy occurred for full time position as the deputy director of a very large infrastructure facility called Indonesia infrastructure initiative called IndII as an acronym, and for the next five years, I was deputy to that project. Now, it was interesting that that was an infrastructure project, because what had changed and when I first went to Indonesia, in the 80s, infrastructure was building roads, building bridges. Now, Indonesia could obviously do that my role became what the projects role was more about offering high level advice on how to finance infrastructure as a facility as a very flexible, it was large scale, it was flexible. And that to me created a quite a contrast over the years. And so I'll just finish up on there. That was a long introduction to my work in Indonesia.

 

Peter M

When you think about Indonesia in the 80s to now it's such a different country. I had a company up there in Bandung just outside of Jakarta. And just to see the changes that occurred before and after the Suharto years. It's an interesting country, and it's gone from strength to strength, despite the challenges it has with the way it does business. Tell me a little bit about the Indonesian infrastructure project. What was the project set up to do?

 

Jeff B

So I was focused on a couple of major sectors water, sanitation, transport, and also PPP public private partnerships. It was focusing on ways of delivering infrastructure. And one of the major modalities was set up for was something called incentive grants. So given that Indonesia had rapidly decentralised in the early 21st century, as you had them, so we had national government with national mandates, but so much power and responsibility was also now invested into the provinces and the districts. And so the Australian contribution of that was to try and demonstrate what was good practice in Australia, good practice globally in financing infrastructure. So as an example, as an incentive grab, if you're a local government, and you want to provide household water connections, well the deal was this; As the local government, you would fund and implement household water connections within your constituency, and if it met the technical requirements, then you would be reimbursed two thirds of it; and the two thirds or one third come from the central government; and one third would come from, in this case, a donor like Australia. So that model was used for household water connections, was used for household sanitation, and was also used for road maintenance. So part of the thinking in terms of transport was to move away from just constructing roads, and eventually do another one. But he's two wards, maintaining the road that economics globally of best practices to maintain the road, the similar sort of incentive grants, so if a local government maintained a road to certain specifications, they'd be reimbursed two thirds.

 

Peter M

What period would you monitor this? And what were the technical requirements to be reimbursed?

 

Jeff B

Ah, okay, well it was the household water connection. So if it was in place and functioning, still, after three to six months, then you'd be reimbursed.

 

Peter M

What was the reach of this project? What were the numbers of beneficiaries,

 

Jeff B

There was 2 million people at the end of IndII, when I left, 2 million people had household water connections, that half a million had household sanitation connections. But I guess the point of that was Indonesia to be doing this right throughout anyhow. So we're already a small part in terms of the actual tangible number of connections, that the contribution The Australian governments making was demonstrating that the model can work but there's also a very strong community connection. So if we took the road maintenance, it was a deliberate strategy to engage the local community in decisions relating to that road, which went through their communities, both in terms if a road was being changed, the community would contribute to those discussions, we created transpor, whats called transport users forums, also that the work which needed to be done in maintaining a road, you know, the grading, filling out potholes, all that sort of stuff that was encouraging use of local communities to actually do that work. So it's income generating work, generating and a vested interest in maintaining the road because they could. So that was an important feature on it. There's also beyond just in things like incentive grants, it was also looking right across the country. One of the legacies of IndII was the production of a national roads policy, as also road safety policy, again, getting together with Indonesian counterparts and thinking, what is good practice? What is the best way to implement this new ways of doing things? It's a different developmental way of thinking. It's bringing new ideas to the table with colleagues seen as partners. There is a little bit of a story about engagement of communities, and the story would start from in the late 60s, early 70s, with a very dynamic governor of Jakarta. His name was Ali Sadikin. Indonesia had just come through very, very difficult times. And the government new government wanted Indonesia to be seen as a modern country, and Jakarta being the centrepiece of the country. The governor introduced an edict and if you remember the things called Becak the tricycle, taxis tricycles, he wanted those taken out of Jakarta, or large parts of Jakarta, but certainly the main roads, because it wasn't a good look, it also impinged on traffic. But the day that came in was the day a young girl named named Herna, and she was about 13. That was a day her education stopped, because she was a paraplegic, and the only way she could get to school was by Becak. So when she could no longer go by Becack, her parents had no other way of getting to the school, her education stopped. So I want to then fast forward to the time of IndII, and one of our projects was working with a narrow, very dynamic governor, governor Ahok, and governor Ahok was very concerned about upgrading the buses in Jakarta, and also access to trains to make sure they are friendly to all citizens, user friendly things like concepts of universal design, which we were involved with. Now, we were able to access a community group, and they were disabled members of the community, various disabilities, whether it be wheelchair whatever impairments, and we were able to use them to provide advice on what a good bus should be what a good train should be, and one of those people in that community was Herna. Herna was now in her 50s, and one of the I think one of the most proudest moments we had with IndII; when this bus fleet was finally designed and was opened, governor Ahok actually took Ibu Herna in her wheelchair, and he put her on the bus. And as I took a spin around central Jakarta, it was governor Ahok and Ibu Herna having a chat and it just reminded me that time about the so much money was spent at high level, you know, with government officials and local officials being able to actually access members of the community and come full circle. And it sort of reminded me as a young person years ago, why I wanted to have a career in development, people like Herna were one of the reasons why I wanted to get into development.

 

Peter M

You mentioned something very interesting there, you talked about strengthening civil society. Tell our audience why the Australian government spends taxpayer dollars in these types of activities. What is the value through your eyes to the Australian public in spending, you know, taxpayers dollars in places like Indonesia?

 

Jeff B

That's a good question, Peter. So there's lots of answers to that. One of the things which are recall from an early foreign minister, Bill Hayden, when he was asked about, you know, why aid and he said, the expression he used was enlighteed self interest. So that combines altruism. I mean, I think what we need to do when we think of aid and development, you actually should separate them and have them to clearly, two different things in mind. I mean, I think aid is very much about immediate humanitarian assistance, is an immediate response to things like, you know, tsunamis, earthquakes, cyclones, you know, famine, flooding, or whatever. That is driven by altruism is something that Australia can do, because we can, we're very good effort, and it's something we would want to do as a good thing. poverty alleviation, is also an aid activity, that is helping people who are doing it tough. So NGOs, that's very much a four day going right to the grassroots level, looking at communities and people. Now, I think most people in Australia, that's our ethos, if people are doing it tough, we want to help. Now where it gets a little bit more complicated, then this is the second thing is the development one. And the development. One is probably a much bigger argument, a much bigger sort of sector, and that's basically acting in the national interest. This is bringing into things like if we're going to spend money, or what are the benefits to Australia, aid is about benefits to the recipient, development is more mutual, I think it's its benefits to Australia being driven by trade, trade opportunities, and strategic, it's us being able to work with countries in our region, as being a partner, as an equal to countries in the region, and being part of that community and being seen to be part of that community. Now that has trade offs against and setting in things like trade. It has things like in peace and security, that's where I think we need to always we're talking to the community. The aid programme, or the development system programme is two different things, two different purposes, but they're both absolutely fundamental.

 

Peter M

That opens up a discussion around China and its influence in our region. As you say, aid and development is done for purposes of self interest. You've been working in Indonesia, and you would have seen the influences. What's your perception for the future of Indonesia given that they're one of our biggest neighbours? without being too political Obviously.

 

Jeff B

Yeah, I've always struggled. You mentioned China, and then the rest of the world was engaged with China over the 30 years, because everyone knew even it started from a low base economically, but it was always going to be a very big economy, a very powerful country, and that's turned out to be exactly right; but you look at Indonesia on on our doorstep. They're the fourth biggest population in the world, and the biggest Islamic country in the world, and they've been growing an economic rate for the last 20 years of roughly 5% per year. That's less than China, of course, but 5% that's now putting Indonesia on course, I mean, I think PwC PricewaterhouseCoopers, have done a recent study, and that's supported by other studies, that's predicting that in 10 years time in 2030, Indonesia would be the fifth biggest economy in the world, and they're on our doorstep. They're even talking about and say, by 2050, it could be the fourth biggest economy in the world. So for all the reasons why Australia and others say Australia was in, you know, wanting to be engaged with China, because it's going to be the economy. Here on our doorstep is an economy which will be the fourth biggest and I think already they've already passed If they haven't passed, they certainly equal to the size of the Australian economy Now. Asia doesn't look south and they look to the future. They generally look north and Western and perhaps arguably looked east. We need countries in Asia more than they need us. We know we carry historical baggage, you know, traditionally, as a predominant European society. Going forward, Peter, as you said, the relationship will with an economic power, which Indonesia would have as a fourth, fifth or fourth biggest economy in the world, again, it's in our interest to be able to trade with them. At the moment I think our trade is one 10th of what it is with China. I think there's huge opportunities for us to increase that, for the mutual benefit, but again, also being seen as a trusted partner in the region, and partnership of equals, Indonesia be looking at us, I think there's two things I remember senior Indonesians have said over the years describing the relationship with Australia, I think one of them might have been former vice president said the relationships a bit like you are a human appendix, you're not quite sure what that organ does, and you only notice it when it plays up. The second was that the relationship is a bit like a pebble in your shoe. You walk along, and sometimes that pebble starts to irritate, give it a shake, the pebble goes away a bit, sometimes go a bit further than the pebbles, their pebbles comes back again. So an interesting way how we perceived in the region.

 

Peter M

Why do you think we haven't developed a trade relationship with Indonesia? Why do they represent such a small component of our exports?

 

Jeff B

That's a very good question. I mean, I think traditionally, we look at Indonesia as a poor country so why bother. Boga stating this, but it's a place, you know, where you go for holidays in Bali, but primarily, it's a place you fly over to go somewhere else. I think the fact that it's a very large Islamic community might also have issues about how we think we can relate to Indonesia. Yeah, I think it's just sort of a blind spot. I mean, Paul Keating, as prime minister long time ago said, the most important relationship of Australia needs to have is Indonesia, he actually articulated that. So it's certainly been on the radar at the political level, but it just doesn't seem to be able to reach his potential. But I really do think things have now times have changed, I do think that Australia will be getting closer with Indonesia, both because we want to, and because we have to.

 

Peter M

Let's talk about the partnership model between contractors and DFAT, which is a really interesting issue with a tighter aid budget. What we're seeing now is a lot of facility managers, between the contractors and DFAT, given you've been on the inside of one of these facilities, I'd be really interested in your perceptions of how that adds value to DFAT, how that adds value to the project, and also to the management process.

 

Jeff B

So IndII was a facility, a very large one, about $300 million over eight or nine years, so that's a large one. The facility, of course, is a new way of thinking, so like 21st century approach to aid rather than 20th century approach to aid. The advantage of a facility and for those who may be not sure of it, the facility is a pool of money and resources, which can be drawn upon at any stage. So the advantage of something like that, so traditionally, a standalone project would go for four or five years, and if partner government came up with good idea, you know, we've been positioned so well, that's a good idea, but sorry, the pipeline's full come back in four years, and we'll talk about it. A facility, ideas can come in at any stage, and so you know, the door is open, right? Good idea, let's talk about this, let's come up and see whether we can run it. It can be of any activity within a facility can be a multimillion dollar multi projects, activities is what many IndII work, but it will also be a one off a couple of months, and a few thousand dollars, so and everything in between.

 

Peter M

So you're saying this approach is a flexible method, regardless of the magnitude of the project?

 

Jeff B

It creates flexibility, it creates the ability to experiment with new ideas, enables from a management point of view apartment government, who is could be very busy, rather than dealing with a whole lot of individual activities, they can deal with one central framework facility similarly from DFAT, instead of having to look after a whole lot of separate activities have the advantage of just dealing with one. So I think that modality is a good modality, again, because of the flexibility and the means to experiment with it. Where it can be a little bit difficult is two issues. First of all, whose facility is it? Is it given that we take Indonesia, for example, is the facility primarily Indonesian who owns this facilities? It is Indonesia owned this facility, Australian government is doing most of the funding, does Australian government own it? The manager contract who spends all their time running it? And so where's the weakest meta managerial level is, you know, where are the lines of command, where are the lines of responsibility, and that can be blurred, and leads to a sort of tension or or confusion amongst those three parties. The second one is in terms of logistics, the dynamics of a facility that there is a surge, and the longer a facility goes on, the more and more activities will come on board, and the more little ones you have, well, that just multiplies the number. Now that's sort of getting into a little bit micro but it is a reality that you're required as a facility implementer to deal with an enormous particular enormous amount of management processes that every activity whether it be small will be goes through that same process and needs to be discussed, designed, procured, manage financed, reported on and so the further quantum that can increase quite rapidly. And it's very hard then, for example, it was DFAT. Now, I'm thinking as an ex DFAT ex AusAIDer. How can you be across all those details of that project, the ones who know more about those, all those activities, actually, the managing contractor, because they live and breathe it every day. So if you have responsibility, legitimate responsibilities as a DFAT person for the overall programme, how can you get on top of all that detail? To what extent do you plunge in to making management decisions about a facility? And to what extent do you back off? So it creates a creative tension, which is a difficult one, it can be difficult sometimes.

 

Peter M

It's interesting, you say that these facilities started to emerge and be used a little more creatively, but one of the criticisms was that there was a stripping out of the knowledge bank out of DFAT, and putting it into these private contractors; and therefore there was a hollowing out, if you like of DFAT in terms of capacity and knowledge. How do you think that's being addressed?

 

Jeff B

I suspect badly at the moment to be honest. It's been exacerbated by the integration of AusAID back into DFAT. I read somewhere, that I think the former head of HR in AusAID, he said that at the integration immediately, something like 1000 years of knowledge of how a programmes work walked out the door at integration. In in a subsequent year or two, after that, another thousand years of knowledge went out the door. So where did all that knowledge and experience go? Now, did it actually go out into the sector and finish up in places like IndII facility, people in the facility, for example, did go into multilaterals? You know, did it go into the NGO community? And if so, that's obviously a good thing If you have, you know, people whose career and knowledge and experiences being used to good effect, it also might mean a lot of people just went and never got back into the sector. If all that's walked out the door from DFAT, what's being replaced with? And so who were the people now, who are managing these projects? Who are accountable for these projects? What are their background? What are their skills? What's their ability to be able to get on top of a project like that? You know, just leaving aside how much work is involved in a facility, people at post DFAT Staff have a lot of things to do. They're very, very busy, they normally carry a lot of mandates. How can they be on top of that? And if they're expected to be on top of that? Is that actually fair? So yeah, at the moment, I think it's a tough time for DFAT, if they are serious about development assistance, if they're serious about aid. Well, I think they need to rethink how they can manage that, how they can handle that. And one of the ways I think of some of the experiences is to actually put DFAT Staff into an inline position in the facility and be the sort of the go between DFAT and the managing contractor, and indeed, you know, with a partner government, that can be a good way, it puts a lot of responsibility on one person, however, yeah, I think that's a good start. I think what it'd be better, though, it'd be to reintroduce. Now, this sounds like almost like reinventing the wheel, actually bringing back that expertise as a way of bringing that expertise and career making sure a career in development, a viable career within DFAT because at the moment, I think that's lost, and if if the Australian Government and DFAT is serious about development assistance, and I said earlier, when you split things between aid which is altruism and development, which is more sort of strategic, it's political, it's a much bigger picture. Okay. You need to have people who have a commitment to that, who have the training to that, to be able to implement that, and oversight it. So I think it's I think that DFAT needs to think about that.

 

Peter M

What I'd like to understand is what the future looks like for the Australian Indonesian relationship, what is going to happen? What's you know, so you've got a crystal ball?What's it gonna look like in 50 years?

 

Jeff B

Well, yeah, I have a crystal ball, but unfortunately, it's not working. It's a crucial sort of dimension, recent one, and it's to do with the framework, which has been agreed between Indonesia and Australia, and it's called the Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement, yeah CEPA and pronounced CEPA. So though, that is sort of a whole of government approach of Australia to have a whole of government approach with Indonesian industries, also through academic institutions, also the private sector, it's actually a framework to try that right. Okay, removing terrorists, we're trying to get together as equals. How can we engage more efficiently, more effectively into the future on a whole range of things, whether it be trade, whether it be security, whether they be academic, whether it be movement of people. That's a really big, you know, initiative. And actually DFAT has actually turned that into the keep that bubbling along, but turned it into one of the development system progress, so CEPA was actually a development system programme in Indonesia. So it's looking at things like where are the trade opportunity, mutual trade opportunities, and there are a number of things which have already been identified from the Australian side, you know, increasing our export to Indonesia, of grain, whether it be for food, and processed food, or whether it be grain for like livestock. But beyond that, Indonesia's export markets as a huge export market to other Islamic Middle East countries around the world. So we can actually, that relationship could be, you know, Australian primary produce like grains, which can then be sort of value added Indonesian to noodles and then could be exported. So it's sort of a win win as we go along. So that's one dimension, I think of CEPA they're going to look at. Other ones, and an interesting one as a result of COVID, and it brings into stark relief, the dangers of putting one's eggs, and it's not just Australia who's done this putting eggs in one basket, this case the China basket in terms of trade, and in terms of supply routes.

 

Peter M

What other sectors should Australia focus on to maintain competitiveness?

 

Jeff B

I think one of the things Australia will be going now into increasingly is to recapture our own manufacturing capacity. And if we do that, given our labour costs, I think we'll be sort of trying to do at the high end of manufacturing, sophisticated manufacturing. That creates an opportunity, I think, to export that sort of expertise as well to other countries. An example which I think CEPA has identified is Indonesian car industry. Indonesia is embarking on electric cars. So though, I think they'll be able to do that well, but where Australia could potentially help them is our sophisticated production of electric with componentry for automobiles, so we could export that, which goes into an Indonesian electric car, and with that, we're using Indonesia with that be on forward and exported on, things like that. Coming the other way back from Indonesia, I mean, Indonesia is very, very good on timber products, textiles, footwear, and also education, again, with the aspects of when you know what's happening with COVID. The market of Indonesians coming to Australia as students, okay, that is benefits to Australia, mutual benefit, freeing up movements of people both ways. If we, early on discussing, we're talking about why doesn't Australia engage with Indonesia in the past one often because we don't understand each other. The more and more young Australians can get to Indonesia, the more people can get to Indonesia, not just on Bali holidays, but actually engaging with the country, that has got to help them have dividends.

 

Peter M

Wow. So it's all sounding very positive, which is a nice way to end this conversation rather than the doom and gloom of COVID. Thank you so much for your time today and your discussion in relation to Indonesia.

 

Jeff B

Thanks very much, Peter. It's been great, and being able to talk about some of the things. Thank you very much.